Jean-Paul Desimpelaere: A second look at Tibet (Part 2)

In the second part of the interview with Tibet expert Jean-Paul Desimpelaere, we learn more about the development of this contested territory from a sociological and historical viewpoint, touch on the riots that took place in March and take a look at Tibet's image in the media.

Jean-Paul Desimpelaere served as co-administrator of the Belgium-China Association from 1982 to 1998. In 1985, he founded the Belgium-China travel agency, which he headed until 1998. He also contributed to research for a book written by his wife Elisabeth Martens, entitled "L’histoire du bouddhisme tibétain, la compassion des puissants" (History of Tibetan Buddhism, Compassion of the Empowered), published by L’Harmattan.

R86: In one interview your wife Elisabeth Martens maintains that one of the reasons for the unrest in Lhasa on March 14, 2008 was the unfair distribution of the fruits of China's economic development between the Han Chinese, Tibetans and the Hui people. This inequality was explained by the fact that the Han, with their better educational background and jobs in the growing technology sector, put them at an advantage on the job market. How is China working to improve the level of education of Tibetans and do you yourself consider these efforts efficient?
JPD: It is true, but it was more so at the beginning. After the riots of 1959, agricultural reforms were implemented in Tibet also, which is when many of the local nobles decided to jump ship. At that time, there were no schools in Tibet and for this reason, Tibetans were already lagging ten years behind the rest of the country in terms of education, whereas elsewhere in the country large numbers of laborers were already being trained to push forth the country's technology sector. This stagnation has still not been fully made up for. It is a fact that more than 80 percent of Tibetans are peasants, farmers, and in general, most of them only have primary school education. Of course there are exceptions, but the education gap between Tibetans and the Han Chinese is incontestable, and well represents the situation in rural China in general. In the countryside, only a small number of the peasant population ever go to college. Whats more, in Tibet, the size of the workforce exceeds the number of jobs by about 400,000 people. The Chinese government is well aware of this. Currently, there are plans to train 150,000 young unemployed Tibetans to become electricians, carpenters, etc. According to the plans, by 2010, the entire excess workforce in the agricultural sector should be re-educated. This is a measure, that I consider to have the potential to be effective.

Tibetans are semi-nomads. (Image: Jean-Paul Desimpelaere)

R86: So you don't think that China, after implementing this education program in Tibet, will be accused of trying to alter the Tibetan culture and way of life ?
JPD: Yes, but this is really not an issue in the agricultural sector. You have to remember that we are talking about farms situated at an altitude of 4,000 meters. Arable land needed for growing barley and corn and for building greenhouses is limited. At present, Tibet is self-sufficient in grain, but if it's not careful, this will no longer be the case in the future. About 80 percent of the population gets its sustenance from agriculture, which is too much if the country wants to stay on the path of development. In Europe, economic growth was largely bolstered by assigning agricultural laborers jobs in industry. In Tibet, Beijing wants especially to develop the light industry sector, which includes the handling of agricultural products and vehicle assembly etc. Another important sector that needs to be developed is tourism. But in order to do that, people need to be educated first. The Tibetans whom I've had the opportunity to meet and who work in the new industries are quite content with their situation. People in the tourism industry need to learn English, which gives them the chance to travel. Workers in light industry earn more than in agriculture. So yes, I have witnessed changes in the local way of life.

R86: What are the ambitions of the Dalai Lama? Wouldn't instituting himself as a leader constitute a step backwards in the region's economic and political development?
JPD: No, not in the economic sense. What would be a step - others might say a jump - backwards, would be if he attempted to replace the socialist ideology, or whatever line of thought is predominant at the time, with Buddhism. He wants to set up a special constitution for Tibet, which is based on the spiritual values of ancient Tibet, in other words on Tibetan Buddhist doctrine. It does not mean reverting back to a theocratic form of governance, because the Dalai Lama would abstain from taking on any political functions. Nevertheless, as the current prime minister in exile is also a lama, the clergy would retain a place in the government. A policy of granting the clergy a place in politics would constitute a step backwards: in the political sense, but not in the economic sense.

R86: Tibet has always been the subject of dispute of different regional and global powers. What are Tibet's own geopolitical and geostrategic interests?
JPD: The first time that Tibet became a part of the geostrategic game was at the end of the 19th century during the era of colonialization. From India in the south came the British. From the north came the czar of Russia. Only Tibet served as a buffer between the two. In the 20th century, Tibet's geostrategic position changed only minutely. In the second half of the century, the United States used the tension between the Tibetan government and China's central authorities as a weapon against the rise of communist power in Asia. In 1949, the American foreign ministry said that: “Tibet is becoming strategically and ideologically important. Since Tibet's independence could help us in our fight against communism, it is in our interest to recognize it as an independence state instead of as a part of China. The Tibetan population is conservative, religious and ready to fight for Buddhism and against communism. In addition, the ideological influence of the Dalai Lama reaches far beyond Tibet's borders.../... It is not Tibet's independence that we are concerned with instead, it's the attitude towards China that we should adopt."

Jean-Paul Desimpelaere. (Image: China News Service)

R86: Your wife has been quoted as saying in this regard that “Tibet is a battleground pitting the United States against China.” Do you share this opinion?
JPD: Yes, in my opinion, that's what has become of it. The current geostrategic ambitions add to the tension between China and the United States. Earlier, Tibet was involved in the battle against communism, but now there is something more there. China is becoming an economic power, and getting too big. In less than 20 years' time, China will have surpassed the US as the top country in terms of total production volume. China is already the third-largest economy and it is also the biggest backer of American debt. With the onset of the US financial crisis the Americans had to knock on China's door last January, asking for help. In my opinion, the US plays a double game. They need to have economic relations and financial transactions with China, but at the same time they are quite uncomfortable with this fact. The two really are not the best of pals, the US would rather opt for partners that are a bit more "valuable," ideologically more Western or more democratic... partners that could better fit into the Western camp. An orange revolution? No, I don't think so. They "tease" China a bit with issues such as Tibet and human rights, or by supporting separatist movements. Economic ties, even if strong, have never been reason enough to end all rivalry.

R86: Did the United States in your opinion play an active role in the events that took place in Tibet?
JPD: Yes, something can be judged from the fact that immediately after the March 14-21 riots in Lhasa, the president of the US congress Nancy Pelosi (NB: she is the speaker of the US House of Representatives), number three in American hierarchy, traveled to Dharamsala for a meeting with the Dalai Lama, to congratulate him and to say “I am happy to see American flags wave here in the streets of Dharamsala”… This is not a coincidence! The United States financially supports Tibetan exiles, of which non-governmental organizations like the NED, New Endorsement for Democracy, or the Tibet Fund, headed by Bush's sister-in-law, serve as proof. There are also other American non-governmental organizations which provide financial assistance to the Dalai Lama's government in-exile and the international information network operating around all that. It's been that way since 1959 and still continues today, but this is not an obstacle to financial and commercial interaction between the US and China. I think that the US hopes that their tactics will help bring about a collapse of the current Chinese regime and lead to it being replaced by another, more Western one.

R86: Do you think that the majority of Western media are "pro-Tibet?"
JPD: Yes, I think so. But this is nothing new. This has been the general attitude over the past 50 years, during which the media have ridiculed about what China has said or not said about the issue. In fact, people don't want to know what China's stance is. Quite contrarily, the position of the government of the Tibetan exiles, which counted 80,000 people in -59 and 120,000 now, has received backing from the US and its NGOs. So there is an entire network that feeds the public opinion through the press. Journalists invariably stumble onto websites such as the Tibet Information Network, which is a London-based institution that receives funding from the US, so it is not neutral even if it claims to be.

During the March riots, foreign journalists were denied entry to Tibet. (Image: China News Service)

R86: Do you think that the arguments of some people quoted by the media are uneducated?
JPD: Yes, of course. But I have to say that this has been on the decline! This is also due to the rise of the internet which has helped speed up the circulation of information. But certainly there are still many people out there who talk about Tibet without knowing the real situation. When people for example say that Tibetans are nomads, it is not true! Tibetans have always been peasants. Stock farmers live in houses in the winter because of the climate. The buildings used to be quite small, but nowadays they are bigger. So they are in fact semi-nomads or breeders that practice transhumance, whereas journalists claim that “Tibetan nomads are being forced to settle in stone houses.” There are many more examples to illustrate this, like their piety, for example. It's true that Tibetans are very religious people, but we tend to idealize their pacifist principles here in the West. Just like us, they are human beings with their complexities and violent streaks. But the way they are presented to us makes them look like saints who tolerate everything and condemn violence, which is not the case. When you travel in Tibet, you quickly realize that there are skirmishes between fellow Tibetans also, which sometimes even involve stabbings and shootings. This is also depicted in the travel accounts of Alexandra David-Neel. She describes Tibet as a harsh country, where people sometimes come face to face with situations where they have to defend themselves, and look out for robbers and the likes. When Tibet is presented in a mysterious fashion, it is also clear indication of a general ignorance of the real Tibet.

R86: As a former administrator of the Belgium-China association, your comments differ from those presented in the mainstream. Should they be considered a pro-China statement?
JPD: Yes, of course, and this is often held against me. But to me that is incomprehensible. The Chinese stance -- I can't say that I support it completely -- but sometimes I'm angered by the fact that it gets absolutely no resonance here. So I try to promulgate it to broaden and diversify the discussion of the issue.

R86: So you are kind of like the devil's advocate?
JPD: Yes, sometimes. But I can also do the opposite. If you ask me about the riots in Lhasa, for example, China says that they were instigated by the Dalai Lama and his government and international support network with the aim of destabilizing China. I agree with that view for the most part. But I can also say that there must exist some reason for why groups young people took to the streets, smashing and setting fire to shops owned by Han Chinese or Muslim Hui people. In Lhasa, there are significant differences between the Chinese and Tibetan people. Young Tibetans need more work. The Chinese who go to live in Tibet only do so if they have a job waiting there. Otherwise, they don't go there. Chinese merchants are much more skilled and experienced than Tibetans. Given that the Tibetan population as tripled in 50 years, there are now too many young people working in agriculture and stock farming, so they move to the cities, where they end up unemployed.

R86: Do you think that it would be at some point possible to come to an objective conclusion on the issue of Tibet, or are we stuck in pro-Tibet vs pro-Beijing thinking?
JPD: I think that this duality will not dissipate in the short run. But I think that it is possible for it to change since more and more people are now coming to Tibet. For me, this is already one step towards improved understanding. In addition, there is more discerning information available to people as well as Western researchers. If we choose to ignore what the Chinese say, there are countless Western researchers who can provide us data on Tibetan demographics, energy solutions, economy and more. So Tibet's interaction with the outside is growing as we speak and I think that this will contribute to an increased understanding of the region, as has already happened with the rest of China. At the beginning of the 1970s, no one really knew China. I remember when first started giving lectures in Belgium, I had to start from zero because people simply had no prior knowledge of China. Now, more and people have visited China and are much more familiar with it. I think that this will also occur with Tibet, which will help clarify things. But I think that the geostrategic game will undoubtedly continue for a long time to come.

R86: What types of reactions do you encounter when lecturing to the public?
JPD: Basically there are two types of reactions. The minority of people react in a very emotional manner and sharply contest my opinions. Sometimes these people can even be aggressive. But out of thirty people, they only account for about three. Others just listen and ask provocative questions, which I think is normal. All the clichés that permeate the Western media are very prominent in their questions. They ask me what they should think, or defend their own points of view. Often it turns into a debate, which I find great. Actually, I often think to myself that I was expecting more people to show up ready to throw tomatoes at me (laugh).

"L’histoire du bouddhisme tibétain, la compassion des puissants" by Elisabeth Martens. (Image: L'Harmattan)

R86: Could you tell us briefly about the book you co-wrote with your wife Elisabeth Martens, as well as about your own book?
JPD: My wife's book has already been published by l’Harmattan. It is called“"L’histoire du bouddhisme tibétain, la compassion des puissants”(History of Tibetan Buddhism, Compassion of the Empowered). It comprises three chapters. The first one focuses on the philosophical aspect and asks questions such as “Is Buddhism a religion? How did Buddhism evolve? What are the origins of Buddhism? What are the particularities of Tibetan Buddhism? etc. The second chapter concentrates on Tibetan history, with Buddhism at its center i.e. the relationship between Buddhism and the existing social structure. The last one asks why Tibetan Buddhism has become so popular in the West. How did that come about? Why did this form of Buddhism gain ground here? And why is it that anyone who confesses to being a Tibetan Buddhist is automatically considered an advocate of Tibetan independence?

R86: Without giving away too much of the book, what is the answer to the last question?
JPD: That Tibetan Buddhism came to Europe along with the community of Tibetan exiles. Today they account for about 120,000 people. These Tibetans also had a political message they wanted to spread, and which has been received by those Westerners who welcomed Buddhism as a new form of spirituality. This is not to say that I disapprove of people here finding their recourse in Buddhism, but the sympathizers of Tibetan Buddhism have often swallowed the political message along with the spiritual teachings without even noticing it. This connection between the spiritual and political is what has added to the mystery surrounding Tibet and its history.

R86: And your own book?
JPD: My book is written in Flemish and will come out at the end of this year (later in French). It is entitled "Tibet: land van de roepers,” “Tibet: the Land of the Wailers,” from valley to valley. It concentrates mostly on the territory's political and geostrategic history, as well as on geography, nature and inhabitants, with focus on dates and ethnic groups, but also on ecology, energy, minerals… and the history of Tibetan politics.